A good-humored conversation between Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins

Moral Evolution

The evolution of morality is a fascinating journey through time, reflecting changes in societal norms and values. Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer discuss how moral values have shifted, comparing it to the Flynn effect, which shows an increase in IQ over the 20th century 1. Dawkins notes that moral progress is akin to a shifting zeitgeist, where societal attitudes evolve, often rapidly, over decades 2. He argues that atheists derive their morals from the same cultural zeitgeist as religious individuals, challenging the notion that morality is solely derived from religious texts 3.

Wherever we get them from, it's the same as where everybody else gets them from because we are 21st century people whether we are religious or not.

--- Richard Dawkins

Shermer adds that this evolution is evident in contemporary issues like gender pronouns, illustrating how societal norms continue to transform 2.

   

Science's Role

Science plays a crucial role in understanding and shaping moral values. Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins explore how scientific reasoning can inform moral philosophy, suggesting that principles like reducing suffering can serve as a foundation for ethical decision-making 4. Dawkins emphasizes that once a fundamental axiom, such as the avoidance of suffering, is established, scientific reasoning can guide moral judgments 4.

The bedrock of my moral faith is that suffering is bad and we should do all we can to avoid suffering among sentient beings.

--- Richard Dawkins

Shermer highlights the challenges of applying scientific principles to complex moral issues, such as cultural practices and ethical dilemmas, but maintains that science provides valuable insights into human values 5.

   

Moral Objectivity

The debate over moral objectivity versus subjectivity is a central theme in discussions about truth and morality. Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer address the complexities of defining objective moral values, particularly when cultural and individual perspectives vary 6. Shermer argues that while some may view suffering as a subjective experience, it can serve as a starting point for building an objective moral framework 6.

If you're Tom Hank stranded on that island, there's no moral issues. It's just you're just by yourself.

--- Michael Shermer

Dawkins critiques the notion that moral truths exist independently of human experience, suggesting that morality is inherently tied to social interactions and human nature 7.