[Unedited] Annette Gordon-Reed and Titus Kaphar with Krista Tippett

Historical Figures

Annette Gordon-Reed and Titus Kaphar explore the complex roles of historical figures like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. Annette highlights Jefferson's focus on building the United States rather than addressing slavery, noting that Washington, with his moral capital, could have made a significant impact had he spoken out against it 1. She also reflects on her childhood experiences in East Texas, which sparked her interest in history and the paradoxes embodied by Jefferson, a freedom fighter and slaveholder 2. Annette emphasizes the importance of recognizing the humanity in historical figures, acknowledging their strengths and vulnerabilities 3.

History is not just about writing about people that you like. It's about people who were important, who did important things, and to try to illuminate their lives in a way that makes that plain to readers.

--- Annette Gordon-Reed

This approach allows us to understand the multifaceted nature of these figures and their impact on American history.

   

Implicit Bias

Implicit biases shape our understanding of history and identity, as discussed by Annette and Titus. Titus shares his experience with a painting that reveals the hidden layers of bias, illustrating how societal narratives often mask deeper truths 4. He emphasizes the importance of engaging in conversations with those who hold different views, acknowledging that well-meaning individuals can still perpetuate biases 5. Annette recounts a personal experience of racial profiling, highlighting how race continues to influence everyday interactions and perceptions 6.

There's a lot of ways to go wrong attempting to mean well, but it's better to go wrong attempting to mean well than go wrong not attempting at all.

--- Titus Kaphar

These discussions underscore the need for awareness and dialogue to address implicit biases.

   

Social Reckoning

The conversation shifts to social reckoning and the need for repair in the face of historical injustices. Titus reflects on his journey of understanding American history, particularly the contradictions faced by figures like George Washington, who recognized the moral wrongs of slavery yet felt powerless to act 7. Annette calls for white individuals to challenge racism and white supremacy within their communities, emphasizing that progress requires collective action 8. She also discusses the importance of shifting narratives and recognizing African Americans as full citizens, urging society to move beyond mere acknowledgment to meaningful change 9.

I would like to see more whites do that because it's demeaning. It's not right for people to have to make the case that we are humans.

--- Annette Gordon-Reed

This dialogue highlights the ongoing struggle for equality and the necessity of confronting uncomfortable truths.